It is sadly AMAZING to see and read how clueless ladies are when it comes to tznius. I don't mean rebellious: Those who dress like street walkers and know exactly what they're doing and why.
I refer to those girls who say things like: "What's wrong with lipstick? Like, guys are gonna stare at my lips?"
Or, this more recent fashion of girls wearing shirts that only cover their torso when their arms are flat against their hips. Lift the arms ever so slightly and hello umbilical cord.
There is a real tragedy out there. Rush Limbaugh jokes that feminism was created so as to allow ugly women to gain entrance into mainstream society. He is so wrong. What has happened in the last few years is that girls, and I mean girls, as young as 8 years old, are being raised to look like
whores. What I mean by that is not a mere insult.
I mean quite literally, that they are raised with the message that they should dress and make themselves up in such a way so as to totally ruin any chance that a man with a healthy libido will respond in anything but a sexual context, even if unspoken. So as to totally ruin the chance that a man will relate to her in a way that respects her mind and soul. People who attend Conservative synagogues see it. I've heard reports from people here in Yehupitz who attend the Conservative temple. Thirteen year old girls who go up for their Bat-Mitzvah aliyah in a sleeveless top and mini-skirt. A fifteen year old, six-foot tall girl who attends her great-aunt's funeral in a black, low-cut, sleeveless again, micro mini.
One thing I've come across over and over again in the rabbinate is that Jews, as far away as they are from mitzvah observance as they may be, appreciate the psychological insight that goes into the halachos of mourning. I wish all those modern orthodox to everything else Jews would aprpeciate the insight that went into the Halachos of Tznius. All you ladies who think you're exerting your independence when you wear skirts that don't cover your knees or shirts that don't cover the elbow, or when you wear tight-fitting clothing: You don't realize that those old fogie rabbis knew what they were talking about and that your wardrobe has not liberated you. It has turned you into an object. Millions of women and men, myself included, simply do not, cannot take you as seriously without a sexual context that I wish wasn't so blatantly there.
It's not that tznius rules are there to protect dirty men from certain thoughts. Tznius is there to protect relationships.
This is not as positive as I would like. If I was sharing this to a live group, I would phrase it more positively. But somewhere it has to phrased this way too.
Posted by Yehupitz at April 21, 2004 11:13 AMThere are two aspects of tznius: 1) not to draw attention to yourself, and 2) not to wear revealing clothing, regardless of the current style. Although both are important, people speak of the latter far more than they do of the former. That's regrettbale. English - that's bad.
Unfortunately, the rationale that wearing tznius clothing protects one from being a sex object, and the opposite in reverse, sounds specious and contrived to me. Women are sex objects, willy-nilly. If a women dresses overly conservatively, she does not cease being dealt with as a sex object,to be treated as a person - she ceases to be dealt with period. Take it to the bank, a woman will always be judged on her appearance, to a far greater degree than obtains to men.
The good news is that you can still dress conservative and be very attractive. Wearing overly revealing clothing, showing a lot of skin, especailly teenagers, is fairly repulsive. Dressing conservative on the other hand can be attractive and alluring. I just think the frum women today over do it. These long flowing skirts are not attractive, no matter how you try to spin it. A little tightness is, I think, necessary. A lot of frum women are more frumpy than frum, and no law of the Torah, tznius or otherwise, requires dowdiness.
I think this problem is part of the problem affecting shidduchim also. Most guys -not all ( I think) require a bit of sexual turn on to be attracted to their dates. With zero flirtation, skirts longer than a bridal trail, and table talk focusing on the Rambam, its a miracle we have any people getting married at all. Exageration - its not a miracle. But I think this problem affects thousands of the more modern kids.
David Farkas
Posted by: David at April 21, 2004 11:49 AMI remember going to Hecht's a few years ago and going to the children's department. I was shocked that clothes for girls the same age as my daughter looked like they were made for streetwalkers. When you do that children (int his case girls) don't have a chance just to be children.
Posted by: David at April 21, 2004 01:17 PMMr Farkas,
I must take exception to your opening salvo. You wrote: "Unfortunately, the rationale that wearing tznius clothing protects one from being a sex object, and the opposite in reverse, sounds specious and contrived to me."
My blog was anything but contrived. I was not defending tznius to some balebos or anything like that. That blog came straight from the heart and mind.
As to content:
I agree that tznius as a concept includes more than the avoidance of slutty clothing. But that is what has been bothering me most recently, so I spoke about it.
I also agree that "Women are sex objects, willy-nilly." Or, to rephrase it in a more acceptable loshon nekia that Chazal would approve of: I think that means that it is impossible due to the very nature of human existance for a man to relate to a woman without him relating to her AS woman, i.e. the sexual counterpart to man. The issue I bring to the table is that while sexuality is a defining attribute of any male/female interaction, low tznius standards make it the primary, nay: the only attribute of the interaction.
As a young woman exploring the halacha regarding modesty, I would like to bring to light another facet of this debate. Living in a society such as this one , we are exposed to provocative dress on a daily basis, as well as sexually sugestive behavior. What I mean to say is that modesty in dress has little effect on the appearance of someone who is not modest in spirit. What good is a shirt that covers the elbows and a skirt that covers the knees if the wearer is suggestive and flirtatious? Whether one chooses to abide strictly by halacha or not, I feel that obtaining an internal modesty of character is the first, and most important step- if we develop this we will in turn develop a feeling of self worth, which will bring us closer to G-d. Then, perhaps the rest will follow.
Posted by: Tamar at July 13, 2004 11:32 PMTamar, I was with you there, until that last line: "I feel that obtaining an internal modesty of character is the first, and most important step..."
The topic of spirit vs. letter of the law is one that has been covered for centuries in Jewish literature. I think you are right to point out the importance of the spirit of tznius. But I don't know if it should always be the "first step". The oft-repeated words of the Sefer Hachinuch might apply, namely that outward actions affect inner attitudes.
Posted by: Yehupitz at July 14, 2004 01:35 PM